Watch a game being made from scratch over a year

Comments


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    I find it interesting that you had such a strong reaction to this thread that you needed to stop and gather your thoughts - why was it so upsetting to find out that someone thinks that what you're super passionate about is silly and a waste of time? I think it's important to step back and understand that in some cases you might be over protective of programming because it is your life. (Which is great, btw, because passionate developers make great projects) But just don't lose perspective.
    I honestly think that's a complete mis-judgement of @Chippit's motivation here.

    These things aren't just valuable to him (or me) because we're programmers and that's what we do. They're valuable to the entire industry because without quality low-level programmers the industry ceases to move forward*. Without these programmers, those tools we all love to use stop evolving. Those cool new tricks that squeeze amazing effects out of the hardware with fewer cycles stop being figured out. Game technology stops where it is right now, and we keep going without any advancements.

    Even to the "typical" game programmer today that doesn't work at that level, understanding the nuts and bolts of how things actually work under the hood always, always makes them better at what they do. Just ask any of the members of this community who have recently released products, or are about to. Prototypes are all good and well, but when it gets to actually making a complete, shippable product you start dealing things like performance, device quirks, all sorts of things where understanding the fundamentals are essential. You don't have to know how memory management works in detail, but the more you know about it the easier your job becomes. The same holds for all these " inefficient and archaic" things the author is hoping to cover,

    *The same of course applies for designers, artists, sound engineers, programmers that work at higher levels and everyone else involved in the process. They all move the craft forward in some way or other.

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    It's aggravating because a number of us are professional game programmers with decades of combined experience and know that those skills are, in fact, extremely valuable (and highly valued in the industry) and not outdated, yet we find ourselves having to regularly defend their value and/or people wanting to start learning those skills every time this topic comes up, on a forum that is supposed to be about supporting local game development.* It makes one rub one's temples in frustration.

    It's one thing to say "I don't personally need to know this" or "I'm personally not interested" or "you can still make good games without learning this skillset" or "it'll take longer to build your game idea if you start from scratch like that, 3rd party tools can give you a big headstart". That's all totally fine.

    It's completely another to say that sharing and spreading that knowledge is silly or a waste of time. Frankly, that's just ignorant.

    *Or we just opt out of the discussion and silently roll our eyes, which is unfortunate, because that's a loss of mentorship and skill sharing.

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    edited
    And I will apologise for my *actually* silly copy pasta in the other thread regarding this. It was unnecessary.

    On topic, I'm not even really a programmer and I see the value in this. It probably won't do anything for me (shader workshop is still a swirl for me) but I see that it has value.

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    dammit said:
    why was it so upsetting to find out that someone thinks that what you're super passionate about is silly and a waste of time?
    If you don't understand the value, why do you feel that calling it silly is warranted? I don't see how comments like that are useful at all. In a community that prides itself on being constructive, inclusive, and supportive, this is extremely out of place.

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    wogan said:
    dammit said:
    I find it interesting that you had such a strong reaction to this thread that you needed to stop and gather your thoughts
    And we all find it interesting that you deliberately took time out of your day to tell us that you thought this project was a silly waste of time ;)
    No guy. You don't get to be smug about that. Decidedly not cool.

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    dislekcia said:
    No guy. You don't get to be smug about that. Decidedly not cool.
    Me? Smug?
    dislekcia said:
    At least I posted what the thing's actually about ;)
    There's that saying about pots and kettles you might know.


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    dammit said:
    Can I say that I think this is kind of silly? Like, as in a waste of time silly.
    In conclusion, I guess the answer to my question is "No, you may not say that."


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    In conclusion, I guess the answer to my question is "No, you may not say that."
    Slight amendment :

    "No, you may not say that without being challenged by people who know that you're mistaken."
  • MCAMCA

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    edited
    dammit said:
    Can I say that I think this is kind of silly? Like, as in a waste of time silly.
    Yes you can, and others can disagree with you. It's OK that you can say that, and it's OK that people can disagree with you. Some people see value in this project, some do not - and that is OK.

    Storm in a teacup?

    Damn right.

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    edited
    Quotes fixed.
    farsicon said:
    dammit said:
    why was it so upsetting to find out that someone thinks that what you're super passionate about is silly and a waste of time?
    If you don't understand the value, why do you feel that calling it silly is warranted? I don't see how comments like that are useful at all. In a community that prides itself on being constructive, inclusive, and supportive, this is extremely out of place.
    It is, and it's sort of ironic how the initial thread (guy makes game) has now become a meta thread about what we all think about people who make games differently than we do, as if that should matter to us at all.

    On point, I watched most of his 001 video (it's over an hour long and I didn't have time for all of it) but it looks like it's going to be a massively useful resource, even just for programmers in general. Hopefully someone distills all of that into a ebook or two :)

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    dammit said:
    That doesn't make sense in this context because I have (a) said we have records of this information and thus we are not incapable of learning about it and (b) the project is literally about repeating how things were done historically.
    I think the core disagreement here is that these two assumptions aren't true.

    @Chippit explained how little information about the technical wizardry of game projects is actually out there, especially as you go further back into the history of games. We might know that Elite procedurally generated star systems and reading about that is fascinating, but we don't know how it actually achieved that in code.

    The project is also not about doing anything an old or deprecated way. If anything, it's about approaching the problems of trying to build a game with the sort of programming skill and experience that means you only make 1 or 2 mistakes before things work, applying a method of development that (hopefully) avoids many of the problems of premature optimisation and overgeneralisation that traditionally plague the code-heavy side of game development.

    That said, I don't think that saying that this project seems silly is a bad thing. Because it is.

    If the goal is to teach and give people learning material, why make an entire performance out of making a game? At best, the game provides context for the individual pieces of learning, sort of like an overarching lesson plan, but that doesn't prevent the project from being 80% about live-streaming going down wrong paths first until the best implementation is finally found or the current bug is fixed or the input works the way you want... And if that whole "80% of your work will be thrown away" lesson is valuable, that's okay, but it's not exclusive to coding everything from scratch.

    There are at least two other goals to the project: Build a finished game. Market the game during development. I think that's probably worth talking about, mostly because the learning value for other people could be improved by not having these two additional goals in the mix. The whole nostalgia angle to that first video? That's all about the marketing, that's all about evoking a specific interpretation of the glory of old-school programming that @dammit quite rightly identified as strange. It's only on deeper inspection that the cool coding learning is revealed, so critiquing the presentation of the project is definitely worthwhile: I wouldn't have looked deeper if it weren't for this thread.

    To steal a thing that @Squidcor said in the office: "So Muratori is writing this game and Blow is writing a compiler. The Witness is never coming out."

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    To steal a thing that @Squidcor said in the office: "So Muratori is writing this game and Blow is writing a compiler. The Witness is never coming out."
    This

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    Just wanted to say that when I saw the site I immediately thought it was a marketing angle to get attention on the project. It didn't feel deeply-hidden at all.

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    Tuism said:
    Just wanted to say that when I saw the site I immediately thought it was a marketing angle to get attention on the project. It didn't feel deeply-hidden at all.
    That's ... normal? How is that odd? Every kickstarter, every indie game, every project that people want others to pay attention to, have some kind of marketing?

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    Yeah I'm not saying it's out of the ordinary, I just thought it odd that it seemed to not have been recognised even for that :)

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    Tuism said:
    Just wanted to say that when I saw the site I immediately thought it was a marketing angle to get attention on the project. It didn't feel deeply-hidden at all.
    What did you think was a marketing angle and what did you think the project was? When did you understand the code-education aspect of the project and that it was about modern coding?

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    I thought it was a marketing angle because it was offering content throughout the lifecycle of the game's development to get people to look at it.

    I'm not denying that it has educational value, that much was clear from reading further in the site, stated intentions, etc.

    So first sight - cool angle - further reading - understood it has educational intentions. The two aren't mutually exclusive :)

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    Tuism said:
    I thought it was a marketing angle because it was offering content throughout the lifecycle of the game's development to get people to look at it.

    I'm not denying that it has educational value, that much was clear from reading further in the site, stated intentions, etc.

    So first sight - cool angle - further reading - understood it has educational intentions. The two aren't mutually exclusive :)
    My point was that it would be a better educational project if it didn't have the "make a game" and "market that game" things happening on top of the trying to teach coding practices.

    My first sight of the trimmings made me think the project wasn't cool, I thought it was silly - I've seen a lot of these sorts of thing and they never get anywhere. I only looked deeper because of this thread.

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    edited
    if the goal is to teach and give people learning material, why make an entire performance out of making a game?
    For the same reason artists watch live streams of pro artists painting. Because you learn tremendous amounts watching how they approach it, where they begin and how they progress, how they tackle and fix problems, and hearing their explanations for their thought processes during the whole thing. This is a fairly common and valuable teaching technique. A lot of people are interested in, would even pay money for, seeing how theories and lessons are applied in practice within the context of a real project.

    Frankly, we're in the age of video streaming, and this kind of thing is only likely to become the norm as time goes on.

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    edited
    @garethf One of my favorites there is quill18 - his as-it-happens videos on procedural mesh generation in unity were the most useful of the lot (including where he made mistakes, threw code away, and googled for answers). He's got piles of videos up here: http://www.youtube.com/user/quill18creates

    EDIT: And another thing - Ludum Dare, and other contests like it, a lot of participants (quill18 among them) will livestream while they work. It's usually a great opportunity to poke inside the mind of a game developer as he's working, far better than reading stale documents.

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    edited
    garethf said:
    For the same reason artists watch live streams of pro artists painting. Because you learn tremendous amounts watching how they approach it, where they begin and how they progress, how they tackle and fix problems, and hearing their explanations for their thought processes during the whole thing. This is a fairly common and valuable teaching technique. A lot of people are interested in, would even pay money for, seeing how theories and lessons are applied in practice within the context of a real project.
    Do you have any links to artists that have launched years-long projects with the same sort of appeal to nostalgia that's still focused on producing a commercial product? I see a lot of artists streaming as they work and perhaps choosing specific things to emphasise for their viewers, but my understanding was that this sort of longer-term, stripped-down authentic project in which an artist mixed their own oil paints, worked with egg tempera and constantly discussing how to model light would be relatively rare. Especially if the goal was still to produce a purchasable product - maybe all we're seeing there is the difference between games and produced visual art, I dunno.

    I think that there are different reasons to stream your work and that marketing awareness building and education might be better served in different ways in that setting.
    garethf said:
    Frankly, we're in the age of video streaming, and this kind of thing is only likely to become the norm as time goes on.
    I know. If I could stream, I would... There are loads of developers that stream, primarily as marketing awareness boosters. Among those are coders whose work is great to watch and learn from, people like Jamie Fristrom for example, but they're not selling their streams with the same "return to basics" angle. I think it's that emphasis that has gotten this particular project the reactions it's been getting - both positive and negative.

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    Last!

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    There's a clear advantage for Casey making a game this way. Presumably this way he can avoid the game's success being evaluated on its merits as a game, and rather have it evaluated based on his coding skills and his coding exposition.

    Assuming he's a much better coder than game designer, and enjoys coding more than game design, then that's a smart business move.

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    <blockquote class="Quote" rel="BlackShipsFilltheSky">There's a clear advantage for Casey making a game this way. Presumably this way he can avoid the game's success being evaluated on its merits as a game, and rather have it evaluated based on his coding skills and his coding exposition.<br /><br />Assuming he's a much better coder than game designer, and enjoys coding more than game design, then that's a smart business move.</blockquote>

    Yes.


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    <blockquote class="Quote" rel="Nitrogen"><blockquote class="Quote" rel="BlackShipsFilltheSky">There's a clear advantage for Casey making a game this way. Presumably this way he can avoid the game's success being evaluated on its merits as a game, and rather have it evaluated based on his coding skills and his coding exposition.<br /><br />Assuming he's a much better coder than game designer, and enjoys coding more than game design, then that's a smart business move.</blockquote>

    Yes.

    </blockquote>

    What he said!


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    <blockquote class="Quote" rel="Nitrogen"><blockquote class="Quote" rel="Nitrogen"><blockquote class="Quote" rel="BlackShipsFilltheSky">There's a clear advantage for Casey making a game this way. Presumably this way he can avoid the game's success being evaluated on its merits as a game, and rather have it evaluated based on his coding skills and his coding exposition.<br /><br />Assuming he's a much better coder than game designer, and enjoys coding more than game design, then that's a smart business move.</blockquote>

    Yes.

    </blockquote>

    What he said!

    </blockquote>

    Death to the infidel!

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