Anyone keen to design a design challenge?


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edited in Questions and Answers
Hello you wonderful game makers you,

Recently was at AMAZE where we were invited to show Under a Glass Bell, our *Award Winning Game (TM)* .... *cough* ... game (j/k) ... sooo in reality it was a pretty good idea and at the Cape Town Global Game Jam it "won" 1st prize (I'm not sure I totally agreed for prizes in the GGJ but hey, marketing and whatever kappa) and we got to bring it to AMAZE I think as a result of that accolade.

The tldr story was that the game was pretty horribly designed for the sort of aesthetic and experience we were aiming for. It was a failed jam game, we found out more about how not to make the game than how actually to make the game! A interesting an idea as it is, it literally required one of us to facilitate playing the game where really it not a game that requires a facilitator (at least not in the sense that we had to spend 5-10 mins per group explaining wtf is going on an htf to play).

At AMAZE that was basically what it turned out to be, people generally didn't know what to do with it and we were too busy meeting awesome people to sit by the booth all the time. It did however spark some cool discussions when we were around.

Most of them was how on earth we would go about redesigning this game and what was wrong with it (a list so detailed I was a few steps away from categorizing the problems :p). We got some great suggestions and amist the conversation someone said "hey, this should be like a design challenge on the forums".

So I'm thinking why not! Unfortunately design is a complicated and difficult subject and a design challenge is tricky to describe and even judge! A task like this might be more suited to a discussion perhaps but a challenge could work. I'm going to say right now I'm thinking of a mechanics-based design challenge but am open to thoughts on this.

so

1) How could we administrate this? Especially ppl who have organised challenges before. General "start here, talk to X" would be helpful... also how much work is it? If it's too much work I need to find people to share the burden.

2) Would Under a Glass Bell be appropriate for such a challenge? I think it is, that said I'm not overly invested in the project so if another game would be better you think I'm all ears

3) How and what do we describe in the challenge? Do we outline the aesthetics of the game we want, the experience perhaps, or maybe the one line/paragraph pitch? For instance "In Under a Glass Bell, 4 players are trapped in a room, you receive bits of information over a single phone one at a time and have to manage that information and what information you know the other players know to find items hidden in the room." . This is how I describe it but it is inherently biased by the way I think about and design games. I usually try to think about the core experience or and design from there. I think core experience is a good and somewhat general way to frame such a challenge but I'm keen to hear if anyone else has anything to say on this.

4) How much room for flexibility do we allow the designer? Too rigid and the design is so locked down from the start that the game's flaws might be insurmountable or frustrating to solve. Too flexible and people could just design whatever they want that is tangentially related to the original spec, which defeats the point somewhat.

5) Any legal/IP problems anyone can foresee?

I'm going to stop here otherwise I'm going to over-wall-of-text this! Would love to hear your thoughts on the idea or if you have any other ways of approaching this all ^_^

Much love to you all <3

Comments


  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    OK I'm trying to understand this and condense it into something understandable...

    So the challenge is: "Design something that was already designed, but better" <--- Like that?

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    I'm with @Tuism... What's the main thing here?

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    Well that's what I'm trying to sus out a bit better. If you want to be creative, ignore everything I said and "Design Challenge" sounds like something that could be cool to host, so how would you do it?... if it's doable at all

    But, what I think I was trying to say was "Here is a core experience and a genre, design a game based on that". Does that make more sense, perhaps?

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    sorry, when my head isn't quite grasping something I tend to wall of text a bit (am learning to fix this, I was worse before!)

    image
    image
    image

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    edited
    So... what you just said that doesn't make any sense by itself. Given the context, you mean:

    "Here is Under a Glass Bell, these are its core bits, design it better"

    Like that?

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    edited
    So Under a Glass Bell's "core experience and genre" *could* be the topic of the first challenge (because I think it's an interesting and challenging idea to design well).

    But if anyone has perhaps a better idea I'm all ears.


    (re context, ignore the stuff about Under a Glass bell being designed badly at first, this is actually irrelevant and merely forms part of the back-story of why this idea of a design challenge came up at all)

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    So if the topic is: "Here is a core experience and a genre, design a game based on that"

    Then a core experience and a genre is still needed for this to be anything at all.

    Previously we had "two button game" which can be read however you want.

    So what you're asking for is a themed game design challenge, and someone/everyone must come up with/agree on a theme?

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    So it's a more tightly constrained version of a competition then?

    Something like: Build gameplay around the idea of multiple players having to share information with each other that the game gives them, despite them being in competition with each other. Is that what you're looking for?

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    @Tuism what you say is the general format of the challenge, something like what @dislekcia says is the actual topic

    so
    ---
    Genre: Saw-like survival simulator

    Core Experience: Multiple players having to share (or hide) information with each other that the game gives them, despite them being in competition with each other to be the last survivors.

    Design a game in this genre that expresses this core experience. Go!
    ---

    So yeah, it would actually be like a normal competition but more constrained I guess... alternatively we could just go "here is Under a Glass Bell, make it better" :p

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    Don't we already cover this in the normal competitions though? I know @dislekcia takes great pains to create a theme for a competition that'll stretch participants ideas and legs.

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    Yeah, no doubt on that. Was wondering if there was a space for something different. This was after discussions at A MAZE and some of us thought our discussions on design were quite interesting and wouldn't this be a good topic for a challenge on the forums. Though if it's just going to overlap the original challenges then there is little point. I suppose I was thinking maybe something that is more design focused than jam focused but the two are so intertwined it's too similar a thing anyway :p

    Cool, well it was something I wanted to hash out. Thanks for the feedback. Anyone have any other ideas on something in a "design space" for the competitions (that is distinct from the current challenges)? Otherwise I'm pretty happy that there is too much overlap ... *awaits next challenge*

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    @Raxter What about volunteering to create the next challenge and run it? I know we haven't had for ages because @dislekcia is simply too busy (and that's completely fair) so is it possible for someone else to take the reigns for a little while?

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    Yeah, do a competition :)

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    Anyone want to help me? I'm also stupidly busy at the moment :( ... I also might not be in the country by the time we get to organising it! :p

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    Oooh, just saw this thread.

    Given how much trouble UAGB's cumbersome ruleset caused for the expo environment, how about a design challenge where you pick a game you think you can improve, then try to build a mechanically similar prototype MINUS some complexity?

    The ruleset needs to be a little simpler, a little less contrived, a little adjusted for clarity. For bonus points, don't just go nuts: see if you can identify only the elements you consider toxic, and remove or adjust them as precisely as possible.

    Aesthetics, themes and other game concepts are entirely changeable, it only needs to be inspired by the original game's ruleset. Experimental games of moderate complexity are probably the most fertile and interesting targets to explore. You can even apply this competition effort to one of your own, earlier designs.

    I wonder if this meanders too close to any previous competitions, but idunnotheresanidea

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    So the challenge is: "Design something that was already designed, but better" <--- Like that?
    :P

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    @Nandrew love it! Yeah I think that get more at the core idea of what I wanted (that is the core idea of identifying the core idea of a game #meta)

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    I'm happy to help if needed

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    Awesome! Just have to get this manic deadline out the way and we can chat (should be in about a week or so). How are these judged usually? And what timeframe do you think will work (December will probably be out and October is quiiite soon) Oct/Nov perhaps?

    Anyone else want to give a hand?

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    @raxter: I'm interested in helping out, in some capacity. I don't really have anything to add to the actual challenge ideas above, but I'll think about it a bit more.

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    How about this...

    Some one makes a very thin small game, ball jumping up and down.
    Then each day phase of competitions you all take it and focus on 1 design aspect, like Mechanics / Sound / Tweening / Personality /Story / user feedback / etc. Whatever which can be clearly define and easy to understand the constraints for the competition.

    Then after phase one there is a winner, then that winning game is phase 2 starting point, with the next design focus.

    This may become a mess, with different game engines, etc.
    Maybe only 1 phase works? ie.) "here is the start make it better"


  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    @Boysano: @Nandrew's idea is a lot more elegant and side-steps any problems with engine choice or early implementation. When I tried a competition that gave people a starting point in GM and asked for WarioWare-esque 30s minigames, a lot less people got involved than with the regular competitions that didn't mandate a "starting point".

    Plus, if people get to choose what they want to redesign, we'd have a lot of interesting discussion about different design problems, not just a couple of problems that people argue about a little bit :)

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    I like the idea of publicly iterating, makes it much more of a learning experience I think.

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    Riocide said:
    I like the idea of publicly iterating, makes it much more of a learning experience I think.
    All the previous competitions did that, it makes a HUGE difference.

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    edited
    I really like the idea of a "remix jam".

    Basically I wanna remix Unseen (insert your own dev lust prototype here) and find out first hand if I can fix its weaknesses ;)

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    @TheFuntastic I would love to see your take on it!

  • Notice: Undefined variable: GuestHourOffset in /home/nitrogen/public_html_mgsatest/forums/themes/mgsa/class.mgsathemehooks.php on line 281
    @dislekcia @Nandrew
    so basically remove all the bits until you can't remove something without breaking the core fun mechanic, instead of adding, to complete a project.

    I think it was the creator of Spelunky whom also gives this advice.
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