So there's this thing called #GamerGate

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    Okay... Firstly, what the actual fuck? GamerGate have now decided to accuse IndieFund members of racketeering because Fez won IGF awards... Yeah, it makes about as much sense as anything else these braintrustees have said.

    @BlackShipsFilltheSky: There are a lot of things that you're taking as gospel from GamerGate that I don't agree with, which is probably where the disconnect in how I advocate treating this is coming from.

    1. I do not accept that GamerGate as a movement speaks for a majority of gamers. I can understand that some self-identifying gamers do feel that GamerGate speaks for them, but the numbers simply don't match up to anything like even a percentage of actual game-playing humans... The small numbers seem loud because they're good at internet, they're also the prime candidates for thinking that they do represent a majority.

    2. The people that rally to GamerGate are not exposed to indie games (as is evident from their laughably incorrect presumptions about the IGF, indie game development and game journalism in general). These are people who are exposed far more to mainstream games, so saying that indie developers have been "talking to these people wrong" is a non-sequitur: They haven't been talking at all, up till now.

    3. Indie developers and freelance journalists are the softest targets to aim for. Not only are they the ones with the least legal protection (in terms of available resources), they're also some of the most concerned with representation and thus the most diverse group. That means it's easy to find women to target (and it is largely women that have BEEN targeted by GamerGate in their "investigations" - this IGF thing is a direct result of them looking for more information to attack @legobutts with). This is always the pattern for bullies: Target the weak, the ones least able to fight back. I'm sorry, but the informational burden is not with the people that are being accused of corruption here - it's with the people laying the accusations.

    4. Which brings me to: These arguments and points that GamerGate is making are not rational. Have you tried to engage with anyone using the hashtag? Have you read what passes for reasoning in their writings? I've yet to find one "gamer" in this mess that is actually legitimately aggrieved, I worry that a lot of the "don't lash out, don't say this whole thing is bad" stuff is playing directly into the hands of the group of people that are trying to manipulate this situation for their own entertainment. Every interaction I've had with GamerGate accounts has been them defending some point of honour about the "movement" in some way, about the only path for communication to be through that particular hashtag. That's not discussion, that's not debate, that's... Well, that's trolling.

    5. Because all the information needed to talk about this stuff is already out there. In many cases, the people that GamerGate is drawing their arrows and tables about have written LOADS of stuff about ethics in the game industry and media. There is hordes of information about the IGF and how it's set up out there, there's even the yearly "IGF is corrupt" threads on TIGsource in which people running the IGF explain everything, listen calmly (to a bunch of fucked up accusations) and institute rule changes and new policies when valid concerns are raised. This is a classic example of the most in-touch, well-meaining, changeable and open organisations and groups of people ever (the IGF and the greater indie "scene", if that wasn't obvious from context) being targeted for silencing.

    6. Silencing is what this is about. What are the desires of GamerGate as a movement? What are the outcomes it has achieved? What is the point of accusing the IGF and claiming corruption all over the place? I'm having a hard time finding anything other than "getting people to shut up". And that's obviously not what we should be doing. Not at all. I empathise with your desire to NOT shut up and find ways to change how things are said instead, but I'm not seeing any evidence that this is effective at all (given how many ways things have been said in the past and how selective the interpretations of things are that are held up as "evil").

    So, no, we don't agree because we clearly don't see GamerGate as the same thing. If I thought it was what you seem to think it's about: Gamers feeling victimised by developers and media they engage with frequently, then yeah, I'd be approaching them differently. In fact, I'd probably be approaching them very similarly to how I relate with the gamers that are frequently victimised by developers and media they engage with frequently: As a feminist.

    Please, give me evidence that GamerGate really isn't a hate campaign that's managed to dupe some internet-native gamers into providing it with legitimacy. @Aequitas was telling me about an otherwise well-meaning youtuber that seems to have been pulled into this that's sincere about how it feels to be targeted as a gamer - except he's mis-representing the arguments made by people calling for "The death of gaming" in exactly the ways that GamerGate does, so he hasn't got accurate information to work with. This is not a tactic of a fair and open movement... Least of all not one concerned with actual ethics.

    P.S. The discussions around #GameEthics have already been more useful and raised more ethical concerns in 3 days than all of GamerGate did since it started. The big difference? #GameEthics isn't about shutting people up, it's about getting people talking.

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    @Dislekcia

    I agree 100% with how you've defined the GamerGate movement. We're obviously talking past each other.

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    @BlackShipsFilltheSky: Okay. Then I'm still 100% confused... Maybe backtrack?

    How are indies and journalists responsible for producing undesirable results? This is probably the part I understand the least from what you've written here so far.

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    @Dislekcia

    Would you say that the gamers who are upset are acting independently from indies and journalists?

    Or maybe, that indies and game journalists aren't participating in the negative feedback loop. That the negative feedback loop would happen regardless of what they do (or that the negative feedback loop would escalate faster without their input) ?

    (I use the term "negative feedback loop" in the sense that I think you used it when you were talking about Phil Fish and how the negative response to him escalated)

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    (wouldn't negative feedback loop means a stable system that doesn't escalate/get bigger/smaller?)

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    (Technically, yes, but @BlackShipsFilltheSky means a positive (i.e. escalating) feedback loop with negative consequences, if I understand him correctly.)

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    @BlackShipsFilltheSky: Yes, I'd say that the people who were causing this are acting independently of indies and journalists. I've already provided why I feel that way above, but the bottom line is that the people who are getting bent out of shape about the "ethics" complaints are people who haven't engaged with any of the existing writing about this before.

    And yes, I'd say that indies and journalists weren't participating in the feedback loop that spun into all of this bullshit - that's simply based on how little actual information GamerGate took from what indies and journalists wrote about it. If you cherry pick 1 or 2 inflammatory "facts", you can make anything seem negative. GamerGate never actually engaged with anyone, it just shouted about things it loudly proclaimed to have "discovered" while it was "blowing things wide open". Just look at where the "facts" that are supposedly so ethically corrupt come from and how few there actually are. This is not supported reasoning with evidence, this is hearsay spun into reasons to hate.

    Have you read that IGF thing? It's basically saying that indies are terrible for doing things that the vast majority of humanity finds completely normal (and probably a bit too liberal, remember that a big part of GamerGate is hatred of "Social Justice Warriors" for being too concerned with things like equality), I don't know how (or why) we should change making friends with people that also make games to suit an angry minority. And even if we did, they could still pull past relationships out of the internet and hold those up as reasons to condemn (which has been their modus operandi so far), so I'm not sure what that would achieve anyway, beyond killing my ability to make a living.

    Indies and journalists were part of trying to defuse it though, talking about it, analysing it, even responding to actual arguments and concerns dug out from under piles and piles of regressive crap and harassment. I'd say that the widespread condemnation of terrible behavior, followed by a willingness to engage on meaningful topics (which was rarely followed up on), was a great way to handle this shitstorm. As soon as you take the hate campaign out of it, the wind goes right out of GamerGate. Why else is #GameEthics not as large? Why aren't there complaints about DoritoGate? Why do the trolls peter out when you actually engage them in rational discussion and ask them to explain their perspectives instead of rise to their baiting?

    This says everything I've tried to say here, except better and with history.

    GamerGate isn't a problem indies made. It's a problem that indies have to deal with because we, more than AAA, are where the new voices are coming from. I feel it's a lot more important to point out how not okay trying to stifle those voices is, rather than trying to coddle bruised egos on people who're so quick to attack rather than explore.

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    @dislekcia: Why aren't there complaints about DoritoGate?
    Exactly why I think the #GamerGate concern about ethics is laughable.

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    @Dislekcia I guess we'll agree to disagree. We're not really having the same argument. I don't disagree about what GamerGate is, but rather our role in escalating it (and therefore our role in the suffering it caused, and may cause into the future).

    And if you can't see that then we clearly disagree about some of the mechanisms of how PR works (and I don't think there's the scope here to convince either of us of the other's perception of how the world works)

    In chatting to Rami, he's of the opinion that GamerGate was a public relations fuckup on the part of indies and indie games press.

    (He obviously didn't say "I've read Danny's posts and I think he's wrong about this particular aspect". I'm just mentioning it in case it gives some more context, even though his comment wasn't in the context of this thread. And of course I'm not saying Rami agrees with all my points, but his opinion does seem in opposition to the idea that indies and journalists weren't affecting the situation negatively)

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    @Dislekcia I guess we'll agree to disagree. We're not really having the same argument. I don't disagree about what GamerGate is, but rather our role in escalating it (and therefore our role in the suffering it caused, and may cause into the future).

    And if you can't see that then we clearly disagree about some of the mechanisms of how PR works (and I don't think there's the scope here to convince either of us of the other's perception of how the world works)
    Yeah. I guess I don't understand what this means...

    What are you saying that indies (specifically) should have done differently? I certainly don't agree that indies caused gamer gate, but I am curious as to what you'd have people do instead.

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    If you recall, I started this thread with a question, based on the assumption that we'd fucked up. And that given that we'd fucked up, and so much damage had been done, that we needed to change something.

    But that was so contentious that I had to stop there and explain myself (bafflingly) several times over.

    I don't trust that you'd really listen to me. I think any critique I offer is going to be taken personally. So I'd rather avoid this conversation now.

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    I don't trust that you'd really listen to me. I think any critique I offer is going to be taken personally. So I'd rather avoid this conversation now.
    I now feel utterly horrible... Uh.

    Okay.

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    :( I had actually hoped that at least one evening we'd all be sitting around drinking hot chocolate ( Boy was I in for a surprise when it comes to JHB "spring" weather ) and chatting about the Gamer Gate saga with the international devs too at AMAZE. It's such a complex issue with so many factors that touch on a lot of nerves, so it's challenging and touchy.

    Can I suggest that perhaps this week's meetup is not about talks or about showing prototypes but perhaps having us all in one room together discussing one of the biggest drama's in the indie dev scene lately? I somehow think that will be of huge value - even if we still walk away with differing opinions and thoughts.

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    @dammit - This could only end in tears! Or someone losing an eye, or something.

    My personal feeling is that even having a discussion about it gives credence to the people claiming that the whole kerfuffle is about "journalistic integrity" when most sensible folks who have been following along know full well it's not.

    I guess there's the "how do we PR good" angle, but I'd rather be a Phil Fish than be good at PR.

    EDIT: We don't attend MGSA meetups, so maybe just ignore me. :P

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    If you recall, I started this thread with a question, based on the assumption that we'd fucked up. And that given that we'd fucked up, and so much damage had been done, that we needed to change something.

    But that was so contentious that I had to stop there and explain myself (bafflingly) several times over.

    I don't trust that you'd really listen to me. I think any critique I offer is going to be taken personally. So I'd rather avoid this conversation now.
    @BlackShipsFilltheSky kinda interested to hear your opinion on this seeing as I spent a good deal of time with Rami just chatting about this. If you'd prefer to email or PM me with it then go for it. Like I would really love to hear what you have to say seeing as my primary focus as a dev right now is PR.

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    rustybroomhandle said:
    I guess there's the "how do we PR good" angle, but I'd rather be a Phil Fish than be good at PR.
    I'm not sure what "Phil Fish" stands for in your mind in this context?

    I'm assuming "Phil Fish" here means speaking the truth even if it pisses people off?

    If that's the case, I'd like to ask: Would you rather be a "Phil Fish" if there were other people being harassed that good PR on your part might have protected?

    I'm certainly not saying your specific PR actions hurt people. But during all of this there was misguided PR that definitely made the situation worse and as a result hurt people in real life.

    I know you were saying "Phil Fish" vs good PR for emphasis, and that doesn't mean you think the two are mutually exclusive. All that I'm trying to get across is that I think bad PR during GamerGate had severe consequences, and not necessarily for the same people that were committing the bad PR.

    (In case I'm misunderstanding your use of "PR") "Good PR" to me means communicating your message in a way that doesn't result in more anger being directed at yourself and those that you represent (at least in this context).

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    I'm certainly not saying your specific PR actions hurt people. But during all of this there was misguided PR that definitely made the situation worse and as a result hurt people in real life.
    I'd need specific examples here. :/ But overall yes, you got the gist of what I was saying. Actually, I'd much rather just punch people in the face.

    During this thing I was seeing quite a few attempts at responding in a reasonable manner. But one cannot reason with unreasonable people. These things tend to just be read by the choir, or in some cases end up as more ammunition for the horde, because they just read it as "you're wrong" and respond accordingly. *

    If their entire platform is based on blind hate and in some cases a very deeply rooted prejudice, how the heck do you remove that? It's not something that can just be gabbed away by some wannabe word-mages. In fact, it's probably something you can't fix unless you can go back and fix the way people have been raised. In which case maybe we should just move on and maybe focus on the next generation - contributing to the culture they consume in positive ways. *cue violin*

    And it's facking everywhere. I was watching an Unreal Engine coding tutorial video presented by a woman. One of the first comments was someone saying something along the lines of "Is she really a developer? I thought only guys did that." This might just be a comment one can laugh at, but it does show how people are brought up.

    * yes, I guess I too need to provide specific examples

    EDIT: This appeared yesterday. I found the editor's opening and closing notes quite amusing. http://www.cracked.com/blog/5-things-i-learned-as-internets-most-hated-person/

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    I'd just like to point out that a dick commenting randomly on someone's youtube is *not* #gamergate, and I think it's not quite right to brush every mention of sexism that's remotely related to the games industry under the same #gamergate brush.

    People SOUND unreasonable when stuff like this is being flung around, and people who sound unreasonable tend not to get mind-cycles in a hopefully reasonable discussion. Like 4channers.
    And it's facking everywhere. I was watching an Unreal Engine coding tutorial video presented by a woman. One of the first comments was someone saying something along the lines of "Is she really a developer? I thought only guys did that." This might just be a comment one can laugh at, but it does show how people are brought up.

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    @tuism I was using that as an example of things ingrained in society, to go with my social conditioning comment in the paragraph prior. My point was that engaging with gamergate idjits is perhaps not the answer, but instead a more broad approach.

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    So, I'm now actually confused, is this thread talking about gamergate or sexism in industry in general? What are you trying to answer here, and what has everyone been trying to answer here?

    My impression is that @Blackshipsfillthesky started wanting to talk about "how can we all collectively do better than the gamergate mess that's been flying around".

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    @Tuism: Rusty simply said that he feels engaging with gamer gate people is a waste of time, but that sexism is a worthwhile thing to deal with and that it's pervasive.

    I feel like focusing on one line about a comment on youtube misses a lot of the rest of his post, which addresses exactly what you're asking him: If their entire platform is based on blind hate and in some cases a very deeply rooted prejudice, how the heck do you remove that? It's not something that can just be gabbed away by some wannabe word-mages. In fact, it's probably something you can't fix unless you can go back and fix the way people have been raised. That's super well said. Also, wannabe word-mages is wonderfully juicy ;)

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    (My answer to that was that perhaps it's futile to even bother, and mayyybe we should rather focus on trying to fix society. We have a powerful tool at our disposal for that: pop culture.) - edit: posted before I saw the above post, mostly the same clarification.
    dislekcia said:
    Also, wannabe word-mages is wonderfully juicy ;)
    I too am a wannabe word-mage, but alas I'm a lowly level 1.

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    Everyone should read the link @rustybroomhandle posted earlier. Especially if you're trying to figure out ways to handle PR in that sort of situation: That's what it's like to be in the center of something like this...

    Also: https://twitter.com/purple_steve/status/512184740297072640
    image

    (Context for the above is that it's in response to a review posted on GoodGamer, a site that was started up by the #gamergate people wanting their own site after many people pointed out that the internet is a good place to do things like that with no money... The review is of Hatoful Boyfriend)

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    So, it does seem to me like there's still conversation to be had and again I would like to propose that that's what we spend next meetup discussing. I think we're all adult-enough for this not to end in tears and I'm happy to be the middle man and just manage the conversation rather than get involved if we need a chair.

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    dislekcia said:
    @Tuism: Rusty simply said that he feels engaging with gamer gate people is a waste of time, but that sexism is a worthwhile thing to deal with and that it's pervasive.

    I feel like focusing on one line about a comment on youtube misses a lot of the rest of his post, which addresses exactly what you're asking him: If their entire platform is based on blind hate and in some cases a very deeply rooted prejudice, how the heck do you remove that? It's not something that can just be gabbed away by some wannabe word-mages. In fact, it's probably something you can't fix unless you can go back and fix the way people have been raised. That's super well said. Also, wannabe word-mages is wonderfully juicy ;)
    Actually, I feel like the point of what @Blackshipsfillthesky was trying to talk about is being entirely missed. He wanted to talk about how sensible and reasonable people could have handled #gamergate in such a way that didn't create a huge amount of lashing for other good people, OR to alienate those who didn't actively take a side.

    But a bunch of people want to talk about how we can shout at sexist people some more.

    So that's the two sides of the "discussion" I'm seeing, and it feels to me the latter isn't engaging with the former.
    dislekcia said:
    If their entire platform is based on blind hate and in some cases a very deeply rooted prejudice, how the heck do you remove that? It's not something that can just be gabbed away by some wannabe word-mages. In fact, it's probably something you can't fix unless you can go back and fix the way people have been raised. That's super well said. Also, wannabe word-mages is wonderfully juicy ;)
    The point that I see is trying to be spoken about here was not whether we can fix sexism. It was trying to see whether we can fix how the topic gets talked about so that people who aren't sexist and unreasonable don't feel like they're being shouted at which causes more knee-jerk backlash ad infinitum.

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    @dammit unfortunately simply saying that you should discuss this at the meetup is kinda exclusionary, since there are people who can't be there, and this is the kind of thing that really needs a lot of thought put into what is said. And in an open floor format where people speak things will end up going on tangents and I doubt you will really end up any closer to an answer that you are looking for.

    ---

    After speaking to Rami and Evan I have to say my perspective on the matter has shifted quite a bit. So when I have a bit more time to sit down and really think out a post about this I will try and outline some thoughts on the matter, but right now the contract work is a calling.

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    @tuism That's exactly where the division happens. Any attempts to address that whole spiel in a reasonable manner has resulted in nothing but hate flung at the person attempting the reasonable discourse. And "sexism" comes up not as some random topic, but because it's at the root of it.

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    Karuji said:
    @dammit unfortunately simply saying that you should discuss this at the meetup is kinda exclusionary, since there are people who can't be there, and this is the kind of thing that really needs a lot of thought put into what is said. And in an open floor format where people speak things will end up going on tangents and I doubt you will really end up any closer to an answer that you are looking for.
    I can't agree with you there. People are having these kinds of conversations over the watercooler all the time, so why can't we have one with the Cape Town people (who are able to attend one meetup). As you said yourself, talking to Rami and Evan made you think differently. What if Evan and Danny talking to each other makes other people think differently? Why would you want to prevent that just because you can't attend?

    Also, I'll add that talking in person is less likely to end in tears because you have that other 70% of communication: body language, tone ect, that we just don't have online.


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    Speaking of attacking people. The press seems to have weekly doses of "gamers did x horrible thing".

    I suggest a topic of discussion that goes: "What can we do to help produce better gamers?" - rather than mushing through the vile river of poo that is GamerGate.

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    Karuji said:
    @dammit unfortunately simply saying that you should discuss this at the meetup is kinda exclusionary, since there are people who can't be there...
    No reason we cannot do it in Jhb too.

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Info
Comment.Page.30.2392.2: false
Info CommentModel->CachePageWhere()
Info
Comment.Page.30.2392.2: array (
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)
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