So there's this thing called #GamerGate

Comments


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    Fengol said:
    War on Boys by Prager University. Saying boys need to be encouraged more academically.
    The main issue is that she relies on essentialised notions of sex and gender; the rest of the problems with the video stem from that misstep.

    The common sense understanding is that your genitals determine your gender, and that behaviour is determined by gender. That is, the way men think and behave is inherent to them being men, and the same is true for women.

    Current work on gender is based more on theoretical ideas from the early 90s, for the most part this is work which has collectively been labelled ‘queer theory’. It suggests that sex (male/female, your genitalia and hormones) is biological, and gender (behavioural performances which exist along a masculine/feminine continuum) is socially constructed, meaning that over time people assigned masculine or feminine value to particular ways of acting or presenting oneself. Queer theory also posits that there isn’t a link between sex and gender, at least not one that isn’t socially constructed (this is part of why people flip the fuck out over trans folk all the time, their gender identity and performance contradicts their understanding of how sex and gender are related). So there isn’t an essential ‘maleness’ or ‘masculinity’, nor is there an essential ‘femaleness’ or ‘femininity’.

    So with that in mind, we can address the rest of the problems with the video

    -Normal boy? ‘Typical’ boys as disorganised and noisy is a product of policing behaviour away from traditionally feminine performances and encouraging ‘boyish’ behaviour, i.e. being rowdy and rough; if girls try to act this way, they’re told not to act like boys, but for boys, it’s just ‘being boys’.
    -I’m not sure if these stats about grades and college admission are accurate. Given CH Sommers’ track history of twisting numbers to deny things like the gender wage gap and the extent to which women are harassed online, I’d take these with a pinch of salt.
    -Turn boys into readers. Actually, I agree with this. As for boys and girls liking different things, again, that’s socialised. Sure, giving them different texts will treat a symptom, but the real problem is in how normative gender constructs vilify certain behaviours, like boys reading poetry.
    -Inspire the male imagination. No such thing. The ‘confessional poet’ thing I can get behind, but that speaks to a larger problem of ghettoising genre fiction more so than it does ‘society hates boys now’. As for Justin drawing a pirate decapitating some dudes, I’m not saying that’s necessarily bad, but I think there’s definitely some room for self-examination when our understanding of ‘normal boyish behaviour’ is the visual representation of murder.
    -Zero tolerance policies. Yeah, that does sound like a bit of an overreaction. But again, ‘typical 7 year old boy’ is an idea that we constructed, there is nothing inherent to being a 7 year old cis boy that makes one want to eat candy into the shape of weaponry.
    -Bring back recess. Again, agreed. You need breaks, especially as a kid. The stuff about games being banned sounds a bit dodgy, but I don't have a ton of time to do extensive research on that, so I won't comment on it.
    -Boys need to be free to work off their energy. So do girls, dummy.
    -These are the young men with whom our daughters will build a future. Or, you know, maybe your daughter will build a future with someone else’s daughter. Or your son will build a future with someone else’s son.

    This doesn’t cover everything, but I’m really not sold on anything CH Sommers has to say. She’s effectively an MRA masquerading as a feminist.

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    farsicon said:
    @dislekcia... if you phrase questions like obvious attacks, why are you surprised when people pick up on it? It is not apparent from your posts that you actually do care about anything except when it is supportive of your own particular ideology.

    You've completely missed the point, and I have learned not to argue with you.
    Why do you feel that way?


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    brondin said:
    ...how do you propose we have a discussion with Gamergate about how their behaviour relates to gender without coming off as an attack? I think your proposal of "why do you feel that way?" is great in that it allows us to start a conversation without jumping straight to those issues, but how do we go about pointing out that their behaviour is problematic and misogynistic without stating it in explicit terms?
    Let me just clarify.. when I use that phrase it is as a surrogate for a particular communication process - I do take into account that it is not as simple as just asking that. It is about getting very deeply involved in the psyche of the target audience and taking them on the journey instead of simply showing them the destination. This means approaching every individual differently, understanding their own particular world view, their own language of logic, and their own insecurities & preconceptions... instead of just searching for the one explanation to "rule them all" and trying to force it down their throats (which is exactly how it is currently perceived by them).

    For obvious reasons this is quite hard, but unfortunately this is what is needed.

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    @farsicon, unfortunately there are a lot of individuals in Gamergate, and I don't know where anyone organising this would get enough people with the requisite time and training to undertake an individual-level operation like that. Or how they would fund them, for that matter. Obviously you're right in that there isn't a single explanation that will convert everyone, but I like to think there's some way the process could be streamlined.

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    So, uh, GamerGate's latest operation is to infiltrate tumblr to convince teenage girls to support them. Here's the outline, it includes instructions on how to simulate human emotions so as to appear relatable and empathetic.

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    brondin said:
    So, uh, GamerGate's latest operation is to infiltrate tumblr to convince teenage girls to support them. Here's the outline, it includes instructions on how to simulate human emotions so as to appear relatable and empathetic.
    "You need to be seen as the victim there in order to gain sympathy and support."
    That's exactly what they keep accusing actual victims of harassment of doing - being "professional victims".

    What GG is about more than anything else, is winning. The win-state might be poorly defined, but nonetheless, they want to "win" no matter what.

    They are/were circulating this http://www.mnei.nl/schopenhauer/38-stratagems.htm amongst themselves. Note point 21: "For it is with victory that your are concerned, and not with truth."

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    farsicon said:
    Let me just clarify.. when I use that phrase it is as a surrogate for a particular communication process - I do take into account that it is not as simple as just asking that. It is about getting very deeply involved in the psyche of the target audience and taking them on the journey instead of simply showing them the destination. This means approaching every individual differently, understanding their own particular world view, their own language of logic, and their own insecurities & preconceptions... instead of just searching for the one explanation to "rule them all" and trying to force it down their throats (which is exactly how it is currently perceived by them).

    For obvious reasons this is quite hard, but unfortunately this is what is needed.
    The last time this approach was brought up in this thread, this is the response it got:
    wogan said:
    Why change them at all? Who, or what, gives you the right to judge someone else as "in need of change", and yourself as the agent of that change? Who's to say that your answer is any better than the one they already have?

    There are millions of people that think the same way you do, and as far as I'm concerned they're responsible for all the bad things in the world - wars, religions, Herbalife. The very idea that you can look at someone else, quietly judge them as incomplete, and appoint yourself their savior, reeks of arrogance. Unless if they're actually asking for it, I don't see how anyone has the right (or even the capability) to interfere.
    I like how my asking why people feel attacked is apparently not good enough though. If I weren't in the habit of trying to allow people the freedom to clarify their points, I'd say it was a great way to move goalposts ;)

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    dislekcia said:
    I like how my asking why people feel attacked is apparently not good enough though. If I weren't in the habit of trying to allow people the freedom to clarify their points, I'd say it was a great way to move goalposts ;)
    aww man!.. are you making me dredge the bowels of this thread of doom? :P

    Don't you think that it's possible that someone who may have had a bad experience could be sensitive about certain things and dislike certain concepts for entirely good reasons? To use the post your example is based on:
    dislekcia said:
    Because, to work, it has to be 100% genuine - it's honestly about changing someone through love and respect.
    The language here is about "making" people see a certain pre-determined point of view. Whether "with love and respect" or not, people connect to the words that grab their attention, and your gut response may be that this is just semantics, but it's not always that simple.

    Personally, I just think the language (here, as well as in GG, etc.) could have been more positioned towards creating an environment of empathy and goodwill that inspires them to desperately want to change on their own. It's about creating additional moral wealth instead of just redistributing the existing stockpile.

    I am not criticising... but I noticed that the more intellectually concise the explanations get (yay for dem writing skillz!), the more it flies over the heads of the masses - this approach seems very counter-intuitive to me, as the audience are not intellectuals.

    ...

    ..oh.. and there is also the possibility that wogan may have been trolling, and ended up a bit on the deep end... (sorry wogan... :) )

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    farsicon said:
    aww man!.. are you making me dredge the bowels of this thread of doom? :P
    Yes. Because I'm tired of the number of points and arguments of yours that people have taken the time to address that you've either ignored or skipped over.
    farsicon said:
    Don't you think that it's possible that someone who may have had a bad experience could be sensitive about certain things and dislike certain concepts for entirely good reasons?
    Is this an answer to my question about why people feel attacked by things that aren't attacks? If so, yeah sure I think that it's possible people might be sensitive to or dislike certain topics for reasons of their own. That doesn't mean those reasons are particularly valid in any specific situation though, nor does that excuse continuous poor behavior in response to the people who bring up those topics.

    Are you saying that you personally feel sensitive about or dislike concepts like the discussion of sexism or the identification of specific forms of harm done to people by sexist behavior? (Sorry, I'm not sure which concepts you're talking about here, these two are just the ones that you've reacted to most strongly in the thread, I'm totally aware that this assumption might be false - I'm only making it to be able to re-state an example back to you)

    Are you saying that GGers personally feel sensitive about or dislike those same concepts too?
    farsicon said:
    The language here is about "making" people see a certain pre-determined point of view. Whether "with love and respect" or not, people connect to the words that grab their attention, and your gut response may be that this is just semantics, but it's not always that simple.
    It amuses me that the poster that my reply there was written to originally completely dismissed the perceptions of readers, then used that exact argument a few posts later ;)

    I'm totally open to that idea. In fact, I've always asked which parts of a post made people feel bad so that I can understand what might have been problematic wording, how I could change it for the better in future and how to explain what I really mean in the current situation. So yeah, "changing someone" was the focus of that particular discussion, I'm not convinced it was a bad choice of words, given that's what we were talking about achieving at that point. Everyone is changed by the people they interact with, even in small ways... To have that initial starting point (creating change in others) suddenly demonised took me by surprise and made me doubt the honesty of that interaction.
    farsicon said:
    Personally, I just think the language (here, as well as in GG, etc.) could have been more positioned towards creating an environment of empathy and goodwill that inspires them to desperately want to change on their own. It's about creating additional moral wealth instead of just redistributing the existing stockpile.
    The desire to want to change is pretty much what I was talking about initially. The biggest barriers to that are the things I've also already identified as communication problems, including the whole "I'm being attacked personally by articles that don't mention me at all" issue.

    However, I don't know why that has a moral stockpile angle. Surely the moral analysis of actual outcomes trumps argumentative moral tactics, meaning that first the moral landscape of the reality of GG needs to be addressed before anyone can honestly claim to be increasing, decreasing or spreading around any existing moral "wealth". I'm not really sure what this metaphor adds to this discussion, as it seems like it's very easy to turn around and use against people that assume moral high ground by claiming attacks against them that don't harm them in any way. (And no, I don't think that this is a good place to make any GGers-are-being-attacked-too points or accusations of false-flagging, that's not what this metaphor is designed to address, is it?)

    Although I should echo back: So what you're saying here is that a group of people self-identifying as part of a movement with morally terrible outcomes shouldn't be expected to address the morality of those outcomes that they've dismissed, for fear of decreasing the amount of moral currency available to them, which they need in order to not feel defensive when talking about these outcomes?
    farsicon said:
    I am not criticising... but I noticed that the more intellectually concise the explanations get (yay for dem writing skillz!), the more it flies over the heads of the masses - this approach seems very counter-intuitive to me, as the audience are not intellectuals.
    Heh. My longer posts get ignored the most. So do @brondin's most verbose, enlightening explanations. The most intellectually concise, pithiest one-liners get the best response.
    farsicon said:
    ..oh.. and there is also the possibility that wogan may have been trolling, and ended up a bit on the deep end... (sorry wogan... :) )
    Obviously I've wondered this as well. About you too. Generally I choose to give the benefit of the doubt, but that's been less likely recently.

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    I'm just saying, if this thread gets more posts than Broforce's thread, I'm cutting a hole in Evan's beard.

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    raithza said:
    I'm just saying, if this thread gets more posts than Broforce's thread, I'm cutting a hole in Evan's beard.
    CHALLENGE ACCEPTED.... Right?

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    dislekcia said:
    Yes. Because I'm tired of the number of points and arguments of yours that people have taken the time to address that you've either ignored or skipped over.
    If you feel that I have not responded to any conversation relating to my message, feel free to let me know which.
    dislekcia said:
    nor does that excuse continuous poor behavior in response to the people who bring up those topics.
    It most definitely does not. But the fact that they are not getting the message is not always because of the message, but due to the delivery system.
    dislekcia said:
    Are you saying that you personally feel sensitive about or dislike concepts like the discussion of sexism or the identification of specific forms of harm done to people by sexist behavior? (Sorry, I'm not sure which concepts you're talking about here, these two are just the ones that you've reacted to most strongly in the thread, I'm totally aware that this assumption might be false - I'm only making it to be able to re-state an example back to you)
    Refer back to your example and my response to it. I made no claim about my own sensitivity or dislikes or the fight against sexism. The concepts at play are also not (necessarily) the discussion of sexism (except maybe when words like misogyny, privilege, etc. are weaponised), but the language used - which misconstrues the message and causes blocks to those who are so inclined. A concept like "changing people" as per my example - is one of them.
    dislekcia said:
    Are you saying that GGers personally feel sensitive about or dislike those same concepts too?
    Because we don't know, it's entirely possible that most of them are just insecure. I will never defend the misogynistic core who have made their intentions clear.
    dislekcia said:
    It amuses me that the poster that my reply there was written to originally completely dismissed the perceptions of readers, then used that exact argument a few posts later ;)
    Does that justify it?
    dislekcia said:
    I'm not convinced it was a bad choice of words, given that's what we were talking about achieving at that point. Everyone is changed by the people they interact with, even in small ways... To have that initial starting point (creating change in others) suddenly demonised took me by surprise and made me doubt the honesty of that interaction.
    It's not a bad choice of words. I understood your example perfectly. The response you had obviously indicated that not everyone reads things the same and I only offered an alternative explanation (because I don't believe all people are inherently bad) and a call for understanding.
    dislekcia said:
    ...moral "wealth"...
    To explain the metaphor... Teaching people values through information alone is good, but the message (and enthusiasm) dilutes with each generation if everyone is not taught from the same source. Having people come to the same conclusions on their own is the most powerful learning that exists - this generates more sources of knowledge and spreads the original message exponentially (in many cases even growing stronger due to fresh inputs).

    I think the rest of your comment around this was based on a misunderstanding... please correct me if I'm wrong.
    dislekcia said:
    Heh. My longer posts get ignored the most. So do @brondin's most verbose, enlightening explanations. The most intellectually concise, pithiest one-liners get the best response.
    "concise" was probably a terrible choice of word in that context... I'm referring to all the articles that are floating around, each one "aiming" (my opinion) to be the final solution to GG: the one where everyone understands and we all move forward... each article/blog condenses the message further, but increases the level of entry in terms of language, and from a literary perspective it's great (to those who understand it, and who already buy into it), but again.. the target audience are not intellectuals and will almost never read past the title. The one-liners are the better option.
    dislekcia said:
    Obviously I've wondered this as well. About you too. Generally I choose to give the benefit of the doubt, but that's been less likely recently.
    Classy.

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    dislekcia said:
    ... a group of people self-identifying as part of a movement with morally terrible outcomes ...
    This also needs to be addressed (in terms of the blocking language that causes people to get upset). This whole concept is a deductive fallacy - and extremely dangerous...

    Example: why not just attack all religious movements as well while you're at it - it's the original source of documented misogyny (and several other morally terrible outcomes) anyways, so why not just slay the beast at its source?

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    farsicon;28560 said:
    I'm referring to all the articles that are floating around, each one "aiming" (my opinion) to be the final solution to GG: the one where everyone understands and we all move forward... each article/blog condenses the message further, but increases the level of entry in terms of language, and from a literary perspective it's great (to those who understand it, and who already buy into it), but again.. the target audience are not intellectuals and will almost never read past the title. The one-liners are the better option.
    Can you point to any that you feel are particularly impenetrable? I haven't found any articles (aside from ones that were written specifically for academic audiences, like Katherine Cross' wonderful piece on First Person Scholar, which deserves to be linked to again) that seemed to be difficult for the average reader.

    In any case, you don't need to be an intellectual to understand the concepts being spoken about. Concepts that originate in the academy tend to bleed out of that context and make their way into common parlance. You no longer need to read Judith Butler or any other feminist writer to figure out what terms like 'misogyny', 'privilege', or 'patriarchy' mean. Spend an hour on tumblr, Google it, maybe read a helpful comic. I totally get that the writing on this can be dense, and I totally agree with being critical of overly academic prose, but it's not like we're limited to the Parisian rhetoric of the 70s; there are a lot of sources that make it much easier to understand. :)

    Also, these words aren't weaponised. Calling someone on their shit and trying to inform them about how their lack of self-awareness and empathy is genuinely hurting the people they come into contact with is not an attack. Feminism is about dismantling sexist power structures. Those words are part of the toolset used to do that. Not making use of them is like trying to eat soup with a steak knife when there's a spoon right next to you.
    farsicon said:
    Example: why not just attack all religious movements as well while you're at it - it's the original source of documented misogyny (and several other morally terrible outcomes) anyways, so why not just slay the beast at its source?
    Gamergate is three months old, and its achievements amount to little other than harassing women and following their threats with "ETHICS IN JOURNALISM BRO." There's definitely a discussion to be had about misogyny as it relates to religion, but that's infinitely more complex and nuanced than the discussion about Gamergate, and changes depending on which religion (and which variation/denomination thereof) we're actually talking about. We can say a lot of good things about religion and one's involvement in it. With Gamergate, all we have is 'you either sent death and rape threats to a woman in the video game industry, or you've contributed to a discourse that tacitly condones that harassment'.

    Also, whatever the extent of the church's role as a 'catalyst of misogyny', patriarchal power structures these days are just as secular as they are bound to religion, if not more so. Consider how startlingly sexist the atheist community can be, Phil Mason being a very relevant example. Attacking religion as the 'source of the beast' wouldn't rid us of misogyny because it's only one of many contemporary sources.

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    brondin said:
    Can you point to any that you feel are particularly impenetrable?
    Not to me personally, but its obvious to me that there is something up... and based on my understanding of people and the behaviour that I observe daily, I'd much rather connect it to the laziness and ignorance of the general public than people being actively "bad" (Occam's razor).

    Just take the debate on evolution vs creationism as an example - this has absolutely nothing to do with morals, but the exact same pattern emerges there - when people refuse to self-educate because it is a chore or because they "think they already know", then you wont make any progress unless you make it so easy for them that they don't even realise they are being taught.
    brondin said:
    there are a lot of sources that make it much easier to understand. :)
    If they were effective I feel like there would have been a bigger impact though.
    brondin said:
    Those words are part of the toolset used to do that. Not making use of them is like trying to eat soup with a steak knife when there's a spoon right next to you.
    I have to disagree with you on this based on what I have already said. You will not connect to the greater public unless you change tactics.
    brondin said:
    or you've contributed to a discourse that tacitly condones that harassment'.
    This accusation is very dangerous and I don't think they (the general public) are even aware what they are "condoning" or even know why they should care. Being part of a movement for lack of another place to belong does not mean you condone every single one of its practices. Which of these labels do you think these people find easier to relate to?

    "Gamers" or "Journalists"

    Yes.. unfortunately, for most of them, this is how far they have thought it through...

    ---

    Look, I'm only providing constructive feedback based on my observations... I don't really care if you use it or not ;)
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