Anyone have experience making foreign payments?


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edited in Questions and Answers
We've got to the point now where we have to start paying royalties for the UDK.
However, it seems that it is not all that straightforward to actually make the payments.
The bank, of course, had no understanding of our business and it seems our transaction does not fall into any of the pre-exsiting boxes that they devised back in the day before Isaac Newton had invented the flint knife.
They told us that we/they will have to apply to the reserve bank for approval and that will be a looong process.

I'm sure others here have run into similar problems.
Does all this sound correct? Is there some miracle piece of information I'm missing that I should be telling them?
Is there a way to describe what we are trying to do in a way that will make banking cogs whir, clank and click into place in a favorable manner?
Am I doing something (unusually) stupid?

Any advice would be appreciated. We'll be able to report back how all this goes for other souls using the UDK.

Comments


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    edited
    I've spent the last 3 months getting outbound payments to the US working. This has been one of the most frustrating, repetitive things I've ever had to do, so I'm there with you on feeling annoyed about this shit. In this age of internet banking and stuff happening instantly (especially when people are totally cool with you getting paid millions of rands in a second) it's really jarring to be deposited back into a collection of stupid arse-covering rules and people who don't know anything about the world outside their bank's doors. So, advice as follows:

    1. Contact whoever your license is going through for Unreal and tell them that sorting this out is a nightmare timesink and you might need a couple of months to get everything organised. Also, inform them that you might need regular invoices from them in order to make payments - if this is the case, you will have to tell them the amounts to invoice you for. I'll get to why you might have to do that... But contact them and say "Argh the SA banks are crazy, Reserve Bank, Exchange Control, people freak out because we make games!" Unreal should be on your side in this.

    2. Stop trying to do this through your regular bank. They will not understand what's going on, you'll have to explain your business model to them every fucking week and they still won't get it. Move to a specialist consultancy, we use Currencies Direct for both incoming and outgoing payments and they consistently get us better rates than the banks offer, plus they sorted out all the stuff that the other banks were saying was impossible. They also only needed to have our business model explained twice.

    3. The reason your bank is saying you need to make an application to the Reserve Bank is because you said the magical word of hatred: "Royalties". We made this mistake too, because that's what we thought it actually was. In our case, we were wrong and revenue share is not royalties, I have no idea what box it gets ticked as for the Reserve Bank, CD handles that for us. Basically, the RB is terrified of money leaving the country. When you pay out, they want to be sure that you're not secretly sending your life's fortune to some tax haven so that RSA can never get their allotted chunk of money from being the place you live in... So, your bank is trying to protect it's arse in the case of the RB auditing your transactions and going "Hey local bank, you guys fucked up letting these people move their life savings out of the country, you owe us all the monies, also fines!" when you have regular invoices from outside the country, your bank feels safer because they can tell the RB "These were legit transfers, look, paper!" - royalties are the perfect storm because the banks have to take your word for it that this is the amount of money you have to pay. So your bank is throwing the responsibility to the RB and asking for them to investigate you so that your bank isn't the one taking the risk. DO NOT PAY ANY FEES FOR APPLICATIONS TO THE RESERVE BANK! These seemed to be totally internal to the bank - we got told we had to do an application for each person we wanted to pay, then we got told we could group them together, then we got told the amount was much less when we said we were going elsewhere. Check with the RB if there are fees.

    4. You might have to do the application thing in the end, but do it via CD. This is because you *are* actually paying royalties on revenues for licensing the Unreal engine. I'm not sure what the paperwork needed for this is, but I know that the process is for the RB to say "Yeah, okay, you can pay this one company regularly, you just have to let us know how much you're going to pay in a year" that's tricky if you're in games because PREDICTING THE FUTURE IS HARD, but you can just spitball it - going too high is good. There's apparently a process at the end of a year to calculate how much you actually sent out anyway, so the prediction may only have been our bank trying for more arse-coverage, I dunno. We ended up labeling our revenue share payments to the DD team members in the US as slices of revenue, not royalties, so we get them to invoice us every month (I'm actually sending out the amounts they need to ask for right now) and then I send those invoices to CD and they get handled. The royalties that banks and the RB understand are franchising agreements with international franchise holders, so licensing an engine could be argued to be similar or not similar, I would see what someone from CD says when you chat to them about it. Lay out your requirements directly though - you have to pay fees, based on a percentage of revenue earned, from using a licensed piece of software.

    5. CD are pretty neat because they set us up with a foreign currency account, so we get paid Dollars into there and we can pay Dollars back out to our US team members without having to pay conversion fees twice. Then we just lump the remainder into our regular business account and CD gives us good rates - they can even do stuff like only convert your Dollars to ZAR when the rate hits a specific amount, etc. They're not quite scriptable, but they've been good for us so far. Netted us a few thousand rand extra here and there AND sorted out our issues with the RB and people not understanding how anyone would try to make money on the internet by selling games, OMG FUTURE WHUT?!

    Good luck. Keep us up to date! I'd been meaning to put this info on the forums, thanks for giving me a reminder to ;)

    P.S. You could use the threat to go to another bank as a tool to get your current bank to play nice, FNB's forex people smartened up when they realised they weren't going to be earning commission on our Steam revenues anymore. But they were still a worse service than CD. This is a service level thing, you're the one who has needs and demands, remember that you're in the driving seat on this stuff. You're not begging for a homeloan here, but banks often forget that and treat you like a peasant.

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    I haven't done this for a few years, but I never had a problem in the past with it. As long as I had an invoice I could just use the standard foreign currency purchase forms from the exchange bureau at Standard Bank, tell the consultant what it was for (ie. purchase of XXX), and it would get sorted.

    Even easier it just having them charge your credit card if that is an option; there's no real exchange control on that :)

    If you have a business account, your best bet is probably to visit one of the business banking advisors at your branch and go through the process with them.

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    Whoa. Thanks for the info dump!

    Somewhat unrelated, but I get regular payment from overseas for contract work, and it always frustrates me that not only is FNB giving me a crap rate, but they charge me commission over that for doing the transaction, rubbing salt in the wound. Basically, I lose over R600 every month just because of the the crap rate and extra charges. To me that's a lot, but I thought all banks were evil, so I didn't know that there were any alternatives.

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    edited
    I haven't done this for a few years, but I never had a problem in the past with it. As long as I had an invoice I could just use the standard foreign currency purchase forms from the exchange bureau at Standard Bank, tell the consultant what it was for (ie. purchase of XXX), and it would get sorted.

    Even easier it just having them charge your credit card if that is an option; there's no real exchange control on that :)

    If you have a business account, your best bet is probably to visit one of the business banking advisors at your branch and go through the process with them.
    The issue is that saying "royalties" and "foreign currency" to any advisor at a bank is going to make them go into damage control mode, especially if they don't understand what you're trying to do because it's a business that's outside of their usual scope. Yes, having an invoice and buying an individual product is doable - we didn't have problems when we bought Unity licenses (besides having to assert that we couldn't find equivalent software made in SA, lol) through a regular bank. It's the recurring payment angle that makes banks go crazy.

    And yeah, CC is an option, as is PayPal. But you're going to end up paying more because the conversion rates are bad, plus your bank is eventually going to sound all sorts of alarms if there are regular large payments to the same account off your CC.

    I think @DarkCarnivour has done the regular approach at his bank and has gotten confused at the hoops they're making him jump through. I had the same experience with multiple banks, CD made stuff a lot better, but paying out regularly is still a hassle if you're not buying goods. I tried to explain why above.


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    Whoa. Thanks for the info dump!

    Somewhat unrelated, but I get regular payment from overseas for contract work, and it always frustrates me that not only is FNB giving me a crap rate, but they charge me commission over that for doing the transaction, rubbing salt in the wound. Basically, I lose over R600 every month just because of the the crap rate and extra charges. To me that's a lot, but I thought all banks were evil, so I didn't know that there were any alternatives.
    Talk to your bank about getting a foreign currency account (they call them CFC accounts). They're free (or at least, ours was with FNB) and they let you keep Dollars as Dollars, so you can do one big conversion if you've got multiple payments coming in, plus they tend to give better rates on CFC accounts - you can at least request better ones if the current quote is crap ;)

    I'm not sure how to minimise commission without moving to a specific currency-focused service, I used to get bent up about the PayPal extra percentages and commission and stuff, but it wasn't worth the stress in the end. And no, you can't get PayPal to pay out to a CFC, I tried :(

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    Hahaha.
    Wow, what a great response, thank you!

    If it weren't so annoying it would be pretty comical. It's good to know that these archaic systems are the ones that have been objectively chosen to hold up important parts of society. My mom once actually got a bank consultant to admit that they lie to people. That was the local FNB branch, and I've had some frustrating, (comical in retrospect) experiences with them so we've been using ABSA.

    1. Yeah, I can appreciate that. They have been quite helpful and I am trying to keep them up to date with what I know.

    2. That sounds quite promising. Do they only have a branch in Capetown? Does that matter?

    3. That sounds like a snake pit hidden just out of sight. Very glad I paused to find out more before pulling any triggers... They did say there would be a fee to apply to the reserve bank. They also mentioned that we would need to have this audited regularly too. Good to know what game the bank is playing.

    4. Ok, doing the application doesn't sound like the end of the world. I don't have a problem if it is honestly the correct thing, and is not just someone looking out for their own arse and putting us between them and the regulators.

    5. We'll definitely have to check out CD.

    Thanks for that great information. I feel like I have some weapons to fight with and don't have to just take their word for everything. :)


    I don't know how well it would work to try it with a credit card for such amounts... also, I don't have a credit card...

    We did go to the bank to the foreign exchange and talked to their consultant. This is the story they gave us. I didn't like the smell of it, so I figured it needed some airing.

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    Time for an update on this...

    The situation was complicated by 2 things specific to our situation:
    -We are transitioning from operating as sole-proprietor to becoming a company.
    -We got new terms on the license for the UDK.

    At the moment, things are once again in limbo. We are waiting for our company reg to go through and then will do the payments. It seems to be simpler to do it as a company rather than go through the process as a sole-prop and then again for the company.
    I have been dealing with Currencies Direct and things seem to be going a bit smoother with them (although I had to remind them to respond to me a couple times...)
    It seems we do need to get that reserve bank approval.
    They did still want a copy of the license agreement and other bullshit like a business plan doc.
    dislekcia said:
    They also only needed to have our business model explained twice.
    I wonder if that is analogous the the 'business plan'. I wonder if I can get away with just explaining it to them, we're not begging for a god damned loan here after all.

    Epic has been great so far and has tolerated my requests for new invoices and agreed to wait. I have been keeping them up to date and trying to give them the details of what is happening and what I understand.

    On the plus side, the new license terms with Epic mean we have to pay quite a bit less.

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    Okay, you're always going to want to be a company for this sort of stuff. You might have a few more issues because your company is brand new (and that looks like money laundering to bank humanoids), but indicate that you've been trading as a sole proprietor for years and this is just an upgrade and that should go away.

    Currencies Direct did have to do a Reserve Bank application for us as well, but I can't remember if we paid for that. I don't think so... I also know they only had to do it once and it wasn't an issue. I've paid out several times since then and the only time there's been a problem was when some random bank employee at Mercantile assumed that two invoices for the same amount were duplicates instead of intended for different people. That got sorted out really quickly though, so no big deal.

    I literally just calculate how much everyone's invoices should be for, ask people for invoices for those amounts and then send those through to CD. Hope things end up as easy for you as well!

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    dislekcia said:
    and that looks like money laundering to bank humanoids
    "Bank Humanoid Simulator"!
    dislekcia said:
    Currencies Direct did have to do a Reserve Bank application for us as well, but I can't remember if we paid for that. I don't think so... I also know they only had to do it once and it wasn't an issue.
    That does sound the same as what I'm hearing. There doesn't seem to be a fee for the application... so far.
    dislekcia said:
    I literally just calculate how much everyone's invoices should be for, ask people for invoices for those amounts and then send those through to CD. Hope things end up as easy for you as well!
    In our case, I go over sales and compile a royalty report for Epic which includes the calculation for their share. Their invoice reflects the same amount I've calculated (I'm sure they'd let me know if I screwed up the calculation though ;) ) So far I've had to ask for invoices because I've been in a hurry to get them.
    The nice thing about dealing with Epic so far has been that you get to talk to people who can adjust rather than just some enforcer drone that follows arbitrary rules.

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    A new quirk we found the other day. In our happy fun pilgrimage to see how much we liked the banks for our company, I mentioned this transaction to a different (apparently higher ranking) manager/consultant/person at ABSA.
    He told us we would need to get an importers code. This is the first I've heard of this one.
    @LexAquillia tells me we shouldn't need such a thing.

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    edited
    A new quirk we found the other day. In our happy fun pilgrimage to see how much we liked the banks for our company, I mentioned this transaction to a different (apparently higher ranking) manager/consultant/person at ABSA.
    He told us we would need to get an importers code. This is the first I've heard of this one.
    @LexAquillia tells me we shouldn't need such a thing.
    Yes, because you're importing MONEY and paying in GAME IP. Obviously... Bwahaha! (No, you don't need an importers code)

    Your bank shouldn't have anything to do with this, because all of them have no idea what you're actually trying to do. Go with Currencies Direct, they get it.

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    Whoops, I should have added what we were doing here.
    Yes, we are going with CD.

    I just added this so it was known here if someone else gets the same story. ;)
    Yes, because you're importing MONEY and paying in GAME IP
    It's a good deal. They offload a crate of money at the docks and we hand over a flash disk.
    To add, though, the guy tried to make the argument that we're importing IP, tech or something from Epic.

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    It's a good deal. They offload a crate of money at the docks and we hand over a flash disk.
    Hahaha :D
    To add, though, the guy tried to make the argument that we're importing IP, tech or something from Epic.
    Yeah, that's the same argument people tried to lob at me. I asked if they have an importers code for Word.

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    edited
    Yet another follow-up; CD got that shit done, problem solved! Another +1 for them.

    Took a while to get reserve bank approval, mind you, and we had to fill out a bit of paperwork... though not nearly as much as I expected :)
    I did keep Epic as well informed as I possibly could, and they were very helpful. If anyone else has this kind of problem, this bit is the most important bit!
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